Lsrddebate
GM: GM-NAME
Players: PLAYER, PLAYER, PLAYER.
Synopsis: A synopsis of what happened here.
Date: DATE HERE, remember to add 60 years to the year to get the timing right :)

LOG GOES HERE
[Debate] Blackout has joined this channel.

[Debate] Blackout hums.
[Debate] Myles has joined this channel.
[Debate] Haley has joined this channel.
[Debate] Annie has joined this channel.
[Debate] Blackout says, "Question. Aren't a ton of plots already more or less closed?"

[Debate] Blackout says, "I don't see this as a huge issue unless you want every plot to be open."
[Debate] Sickle says, "The vast majority of plots I run, I open to the public."
[Debate] Blackout says, "Right, but a lot of them aren't, no?"
[Debate] Sickle says, "I ran five plots this week. One of them was prebooked."
[Debate] Kassandra says, "Define lots, Blackout"
[Debate] Blackout is asking.
[Debate] Kassandra is asking as well. you are tossing out a general term, I am asking for a definition of what you consider 'lots'
Long distance to Slinger: Vulcan can reopen? I didn't realize yall were busy. :(
[Debate] Vulcan says, "I will point out…"
[Debate] Haley says, "I open up scenes I run to the public, however I do set limits. I'm not going to put someone fresh out of chargen with someone that's been around for ten years so the people out of chargen have no choice but grab pom-poms and wait for the plot to end."
[Debate] Vulcan says, "I have been asked to delay this"
[Debate] Holtzclaw has joined this channel.
[Debate] Vulcan says, "The two authors of the program cannot be involved in the debate."
[Debate] Vulcan says, "They are busy right now, RL."
[Debate] Kassandra says, "Ah"
[Debate] Kalyani has joined this channel.
Long distance to Slinger: Vulcan puts that out there though.
Long distance to Slinger: Vulcan hugs.

[Debate] Vulcan says, "I have gone on record with my unease with the program. There is a difference between running a plot for your buddies online, where the POTENTIAL to add a random newbie or other person exists…"
[Debate] Vulcan says, "And this proposal, which cannot at all include that."
[Debate] Blackout says, "It could, couldn't it? Ask in game for volunteers?"
[Debate] Blackout says, "It's not hard to use vent."
[Debate] Sickle says, "It cuts things down further."

[Debate] Sickle says, "Some of us don't have headsets. Or want them."
[Debate] Haley says, "I am not physically able to go to people homes and I am sure as heck not letting strangers into my house. :P"
[Debate] Myles says, "Not everyone want's to use Vent though"
[Debate] Rielle rubs her chin, "What if someone's mute?"
[Debate] Kassandra says, "Right"

[Debate] Annie says, "My main worry is starting to see a predominance of: Plot taking players! Must have teamspeak!"
[Debate] Haley nods to Annie.
[Debate] Rielle says, "Sounds frightening, Annie. :o"
[Debate] Vulcan says, "And again: When you communicate verbally, you do not write. You do not create a story. instead of…"
[Debate] Blackout says, "I don't see why you say that."
[Debate] Annie says, "Yep. I already get enough of that in Eve Online."
[Debate] Myles says, "It's totally unbalanced to offer people that use vent an advantage over those that don't. People that don't use vent should have some form of advantage over those that do. For balance issues ofcourse"
[Debate] Sickle says, "Tabletop gaming is fun, but it isn't MUSHing."
[Debate] Sickle says, "I do a lot of both, for very different reasons."
[Debate] Blackout says, "A lot of people are IC or semi-IC in TT campaigns."
[Debate] Vulcan says, "Calavera eyes the man down range, adjusting her scope. She thinks for a moment… this man's life is about to end. She's about to end it. She contemplates the moral issues of that situation for a moment, then pulls the trigger."
[Debate] Vulcan says, "You don't get that."
[Debate] Holtzclaw says, "I've had one misunderstanding, some parts seem lke as if they are saying like a tabletop group. While some seem like a Voice chat run."
[Debate] Vulcan says, "You get: Whats my TN. Calavera shoots."
[Debate] Haley says, "My disability is my lungs, I rather not waste breath and require a nice breather mask treatment just because a select few people think, "Hey, this is something we do anyway, lets get karma for it too.""
[Debate] Annie says, "Plus, I don't really want to be in a plot with sexy Calavera, whose voice sounds like Barry White"
[Debate] Kassandra says, "ha!"
[Debate] Vulcan nods to Annie.
[Debate] Sickle says, "It's both, Holtz, so long as voice logs are sent in."
[Debate] Craig is kinda here. :D
[Debate] Vulcan waves to Craig.
[Debate] Holtzclaw says, "So it would be your character from here right?"
[Debate] Kassandra says, "Moreover, I (and perhaps others) have a lot of distractions. If I have to step away at the moment, the words are on the screen. I dont miss anything."
[Debate] Vulcan says, "Yes."
[Debate] Numb has joined this channel.
[Debate] Gryphon has joined this channel.
[Debate] Holtzclaw says, "Would you get money or anything from the runs outside of the MUSH?"

[Debate] Vulcan says, "Yes."
[Debate] Myles says, "Which is totally unfair"

[Debate] Vulcan says, "Thats the proposal at hand. Not the -ability- to use your character, which you can. The -reward- for using yoru character."
[Debate] Craig says, "Yep. Same sheet, same karma, same requirements for using up items of gear you consume, etc."
[Debate] Gryphon is at work and reading on a cell-phone, so read-only.
[Debate] Sickle says, "I also can't help but feel sorry for the admin who would have to listen to the logs."

[Debate] Annie says, "I am just worried that my mental image of how some of these characters sound would be forever tainted :p"
[Debate] Sickle says, "It takes a lot less time to read a log of 6 hours than listen to a tape of 2."
[Debate] Vulcan says, "http://denver.wikidot.com/log:lsrddebate as a note."
[Debate] Myles says, "What if I'm a mute and can't participate in the teamspeak/vent. I don't get a reward because I'm physically unable to do it?"
[Debate] Blackout sees if this works.

[Debate] Craig says, "What if you're blind and can't log into the MUSH? :P"
[Debate] Rielle says, "Ugh, thinking on it… It'd be really annoying trying to use my character's voice. XD And yeah, what Myles said!"
[Debate] Haley says, "I don't see why people should get bonus karma for their little side things."
[Debate] Sickle says, "I knew a blind guy who MUSH'd."
[Debate] Holtzclaw says, "Well I see it the same as if you just used the character in a plotroom with the cluster of people you could actually do the Living SR with. say if Vulcan was the GM for Myles Craig and Rielle, for real lif"
[Debate] Vulcan says, "Then Craig; you were never an issue int he first place :)"
[Debate] Myles says, "text to speech, I know lots that use it"
[Debate] Haley says, "Yeah that's how a friend of mine used to do it."
[Debate] Craig says, "Exactly my point. This is not an Accessability debate."
[Debate] Vulcan says, "Actually, it is."
[Debate] Holtzclaw says, "Life, its the same as if it was Vulcan Myles, Craig, and Rielle in Plot Room 3"
[Debate] Craig says, "Right. Well, then, we have about 5000 pages of People With Disabilities Act to comply with."
[Debate] Craig says, "Let's disable ANSI because some people are color blind."
[Debate] Vulcan says, "That stupid, craig, and you know it."
[Debate] Haley says, "It shouldn't even be a debate. Basically it strikes me as people that do something already trying to get bonuses for doing it."
[Debate] Craig says, "Yes, and so is the arguement of 'what if someone is mute'."
[Debate] Blackout says, "The whole mute thing is a bit silly."
[Debate] Vulcan says, "The argument may be, I agree, but theres a core here."
[Debate] Sickle says, "The geographical dispersion is a fair point."
[Debate] Kassandra says, "I would ask: if this is your character here, your sheet here, the rules here, everything here .. why does this need to be conducted over voice? It is nice that people tabletop together, but .. why does it NEED to be the PCs from here?"
[Debate] Sickle says, "I think I'm the only person in England who lives in the same city as another player on the MUSH. And I won't be in three months time."
[Debate] Kassandra says, "If you used your WOW character could you get awards there?"
«BBoard» New message (ooc9/148) from Blackout (#5096) on Proposals: Re: Living SR.
[Debate] Vulcan says, "That core, is your program specifically excludes anyone who either does not live in your house, within a reasonable distance of your house, or doesn't want to deal with sitting alone in a room chatting on a phone all day to describe their actions."
[Debate] Vulcan says, "And it specifically removes the MUSH aspect from the game."
[Debate] Craig says, "Or the people living near Lawrence, or the people up in Seattle, or the people in New Orleans, or…"
[Debate] Blackout says, "Most people in the US are pretty close in timing to Denver."
[Debate] Vulcan says, "Your respnonse does not make sense."
[Debate] Craig says, "There's more groups than just the KC group, Vulcan."
[Debate] Sickle says, "It's the MUSH aspect that makes me concerned."
[Debate] Craig says, "The survey /proved/ that."
[Debate] Vulcan says, "Did you read my post?"
[Debate] Haley says, "I'm the only one in my part of the world that plays here :P"
[Debate] Kassandra says, "The survey proved that they lived some place. I do not think it proved that they were playing TT or even attempting such"
[Debate] Craig says, "Further, people can start local groups with local players that currently /don't/ play on Denver. Net result: More people on Denver to RP with, not less."
[Debate] Vulcan says, "There are 3 clusters. The pac northwest, LV nevada, if you count idle players, and yous."
[Debate] Myles says, "I'm just saying it's unbalanced. There needs to be a reward for people that don't participate, and a reward only they can get. You might as well open up a paypal account so people can use real money to get an advantage too."
[Debate] Craig says, "Your Post Was Wrong."
[Debate] Vulcan says, "Your statement is not born out by the data."
[Debate] Blackout says, "How are people from those areas excluded?"

[Debate] Craig says, "Are we looking at the same data?"
[Debate] Blackout says, "You haven't really stated that."
[Debate] Blackout says, "I don't see a timezone requirement."
[Debate] Vulcan says, "The DATA shows: Las Vegas, Pac North West, Kanasas/missouri cluster."
[Debate] Blackout says, "One or two hours of difference isn't that huge."
[Debate] Sickle says, "As I said in my post, if you start accepting other forms of media on a regular basis, you make it so that the two forms of media are in competition."
[Debate] Craig says, "And there were like three people in the New Orleans area."
[Debate] Vulcan says, "Las Vegas is only 3 players, 1 of whom hasn't logged in."
[Debate] Vulcan says, "Your not correct."
[Debate] Sickle says, "So, you will have people thinking: Do I run by text or by voice?"
[Debate] Vulcan says, "I am the only player in Lousisiana."
[Debate] Sickle says, "EVERYONE who can play here can play by text."
[Debate] Sickle says, "NOT everyone who can play here can play by voice."
[Debate] Kalyani says, "While this bit from me isn't exactly about accessability, I believe the whole thing about posting compared to just saying 'Calavera shoots', or however the example was, COULD be fixed. Because people could use a program that allowed text and voice, as where the voice was the TN, and poses could be typed. I've gamed this way before. When it comes to the extra karma, though, thats something thats kinda weird. This thing seems okay for if you had a character you wanted to play on Denver, but couldn't, because of the alt limitation. So if they were to do all of this, it would make more sense to me to make new characters purely for the Living SR."
[Debate] Haley says, "This is a MUSH, only things done ON the MUSH should count."
[Debate] Blackout says, "The only difference is text vs speech. Otherwise it uses everything from the game and has the same IC consequences."
[Debate] Rielle says, "Agreed: Haley!"
[Debate] Vulcan says, "I very much hold that this program is preferental, in the extreme, to the persons putting it forth and advocating for it, representing what could be construed as an unethical and exclusitory method for them to gain karma and wealth."
[Debate] Vulcan says, "Even if it wasn't meant to be."
[Debate] Blackout says, "If you believe they're excluding others, how does vent change anything?"
[Debate] Janie really needs to go to bed, but will add this point: for me at least it's far, /FAR/ easier to comprehend written/text language than a spoken voice. Especially a spoken voice compressed by internet streaming audio codecs.
[Debate] Blackout says, "Likewise, if a group is accepting of others, vent also doesn't change anything."
[Debate] Haley says, "Its nice people have friends to play Shadowrun with. Its nice that people are willing to play with eachother on voice chat. More power to them and mores the rich social life however it shouldn't give them extra credit on a MUSH."
[Debate] Myles says, "because they are getting rewarded for exclusion"
[Debate] Blackout says, "If you run an exclusive plot in the game now, you are getting rewarded for exclusion."
[Debate] Sickle says, "Because it draws away from the pool of activity on the game."
[Debate] Sickle says, "Even if you don't take part in the plot, you can usually come and watch it."
[Debate] Haley says, "What's next people that spend 90% of their times in their apartments submitting phone sex for krama?"
[Debate] Blackout says, "Saying text exclusion is ok while voice exclusion is not doesn't make any sense."
[Debate] Sickle says, "Yes it does."
[Debate] Vulcan says, "blackout: Let me address your point."
[Debate] Sickle says, "Textual exclusion doesn't draw away from the overall pool of people using the MUSH to game. I believe this would."
[Debate] Blackout says, "Ok, tell me specifically how vent will alter the behavior of players who are already accepting or not accepting."
[Debate] Myles says, "Yes Haley, and a paypal account to buy Karma with IRL money"
[Debate] Blackout says, "This is the exact question I want answered."
[Debate] Haley says, "Woo Myles!"
«BBoard» New message (ooc2/28) from Numb (#4836) on General Discussion: Now for something completely different!.
[Debate] Haley says, "How much is karma in USD?"
[Debate] Kassandra would be interested in knowing where the 1/4 to 1/2 plots being exclusive came from
[Debate] Vulcan says, "I cannot drive to Missouri to take part in a living SR game. I am by -default- excluded. I run a plot for, uh, Page and Slinger. You -can- be involved. Weigther or not I have space is another matter. You are not by DEFAULT excluded."
[Debate] Haley says, "can I pay in L$?"
[Debate] Craig says, "People who play on the voice chats will still log into Denver. They have to - karma spends, gear acquisition, all that stuff is still handled via queues. And while they're here, they'll interact with people and gradually get drawn into the Online RP aspects."
[Debate] Holtzclaw says, "Well I don't think it would be something going on as often as people might think either, Sure its a fun Idea but I don't think the people in each cluster could get together every day for a plot."
[Debate] Blackout says, "It's an arbitrary number. Feel free to disagree."
[Debate] Vulcan says, "You are not excluded, you are simply not included. There is a real difference there."

[Debate] Myles says, "Any monetary form is accepted, and for every 3 KP you buy you get the fourth free"
[Debate] Rielle says, "XD"
[Debate] Blackout says, "Yes, vent-based runs = RMT."
[Debate] Sickle says, "RMT?"
[Debate] Haley says, "Basically, to me, it feels like, "Hey we do this anyway, lets try to get karma for it too.""
[Debate] Vulcan says, "I do not exclude my neighbor from my games. I simply do not invite him. By setting up a system whererby you CANNOT join, even if you wanted to, it is exclusitory. The argument is ventrillo. But come the -heck- on about that. Who among you, REALLY is going to sit there for a plot, chatting on a headset, not posing, listening to other people in person have a good time?"
[Debate] Blackout says, "If they're already runs with mush-based characters facing mush-based consequences, then shouldn't there be IC reward?"
[Debate] Simone has joined this channel.
[Debate] Vulcan says, "There are no mush based consiquences."
[Debate] Haley says, "I propose the next Shadowrun combat I get into be held using Team Fortress 2 so the fights go quicker, can I use fraps for karma?"
[Debate] Blackout says, "Under their proposal, there would be, because the logs would be reviewed."
[Debate] Vulcan says, "There would be no logs."
[Debate] Blackout says, "Voice logs."
[Debate] Kassandra says, "There have already been logs from this experiment."
[Debate] Sickle says, "There'd be audio logs. Have fun listening to two-three hours of gaming."
[Debate] Blackout says, "If you die in such a run, you'd still be dead."
[Debate] Vulcan says, "I'm sure as frag not going to listen to 8 hours of someones tabletop game."
[Debate] Numb seconds the TF2 idea.
[Debate] Vulcan says, "Think about that for a moment."
[Debate] Blackout says, "That's an actual concrete complaint."
[Debate] Vulcan says, "Really fricken think about that."
[Debate] Haley says, "We can get 12 year old kids on there yelling, "Pwned Bitx!""
[Debate] Janie says, "Voice logs are a lot harder to edit for readability - well, audibility."
[Debate] Blackout says, "The only valid arguments I've heard are the issue of logs being too long, vent sometimes being difficult to understand if a player has a low quality mic, and the issue of missing backscroll."
[Debate] Craig says, "One suggestion has been to include timestamps of important points in the text summary, so you can quickly skip to important sections."
[Debate] Numb says, "And a hundred times more invovled in approving such logs by the staff member having to sit through it."
[Debate] Kassandra says, "Valid to whom?"
[Debate] Sickle says, "Can I give line references and tell the admin to skip the fluff?"
[Debate] Craig says, "Hell, I do that already, Sickle. ;)"
[Debate] Sickle says, "You don't really need to know how they got here, just take it as read everything was fair. I'll time my 50k now."
[Debate] Sickle says, "*take."
[Debate] Sickle says, "And that is disturbing."
[Debate] Haley says, "If you don't want to read logs that's fine, I'll be happy to join staff and just do logs."
[Debate] Craig says, "What, that I skim 50k logs?"
[Debate] Sickle says, "Yes."
[Debate] Myles says, "I use Linux so I can't participate since Vent doesn't offer a linux version, I am completely unable to participate"
[Debate] Numb can speed through a written log fairly quickly.
[Debate] Vulcan says, "I can read a log while at work."
[Debate] Vulcan says, "I can read a log while on the toilet."
[Debate] Craig says, "When I read logs, my critera are, 'Did people have fun', and 'are the rewards reasonable'. I don't have to read through every dice roll to make sure the rules were followed to the letter to verify that."
[Debate] Rielle says, "Oh wow. :O So… Myles, from the sound of this, all this voice stuff is really complicating things. :|"
[Debate] Vulcan says, "I can read a log while on the train."
[Debate] Blackout says, "If you want to keep things integrated, require open plots to be advertised on the game like any other open plot."
[Debate] Haley says, "Could you would you with a goat though Vulcan?"
[Debate] Vulcan says, "No, but I would be on a boat."

[Debate] Haley says, "You're hired."
[Debate] Myles says, "Yep, it's unfair to me because my OS doesn't let me participate."
[Debate] Sickle says, "I've had plots cut down for missing rules consistently. I've heard of plots getting cut down for SINGLE rulings that get missed."
[Debate] Craig says, "Myles - you could get a group together iRL and have them join Denver. :)"
[Debate] Rielle says, "That's bad luck, Sickle. :O"
[Debate] Sickle says, "I accept that because it is my responsibility as GM to make sure that my runs conform to the standards of the game."
[Debate] Blackout says, "There is a vent client for Linux, isn't there?"
[Debate] Haley says, "I had logs cut down because a player lied to me about what they could do :P"
[Debate] Blackout says, "Vent itself doesn't work, but there is a client."
[Debate] Wyldfire has joined this channel.
[Debate] Sickle says, "I don't much like the idea that there is an elite who can just say 'go here, check the important bits, skim everything else, give me my payout'."
[Debate] Haley says, "Oh sure I can do 4 complex actions as long as I have Ambidexterity!"
[Debate] Myles says, "But I can't participate in the Living Shadowrun and have a chance to get the advantage everyone else does"
[Debate] Vulcan says, "in the end, I stand by my assertation that this program exists to reward a select group for their RL interactions and gaming group, while excluding, specifically, the majority of the text based roleplayers who will not be able or willing to download software and chat across the internet to take part in a plot that has no log."
[Debate] Wyldfire says, "An elite, Sickle?"
[Debate] Annie says, "I see no problem with the proposal for the most part. If a group gets together for a plot and someone wants to use voice comms, and everyone agrees…go for it. As I said earlier however, I am afraid it will degenerate into plots being run solely for people with access to voice comms, with other people being excluded because they slow things down with their archaic typing. I am afraid of peer pressure or people being denied access to a plot because they don't have voice. I don't see a problem with voice comms being used for ooc chatter either."
[Debate] Simone says, "Craig, I'll vouch for the people who have tried and failed to create live gaming groups. It's not in the cards for me, and certainly others. That is why we much."
[Debate] Simone says, "*mush"

[Debate] Sickle says, "Just what Craig said. He's already telling people to miss sections from his logs when reviewing them."
[Debate] Wyldfire says, "Um… I think you're misunderstanding what he said, Sickle."
[Debate] Vulcan says, "I have no problem with a group that uses voice comms. But if you are already on the internet, you will be logged in to Denver and producing a log, wiht +dice rolls."
[Debate] Blackout says, "There is a log."
[Debate] Haley says, "I think it'll end up as another situation of "It depends on which staffer you ask.""
[Debate] Vulcan says, "And then there is no need for this special program."
[Debate] Rielle says, "I agree with what Annie just said. :|"

[Debate] Wyldfire admits — I skim logs. I read through for a general idea of, "What did they do, what threat level were they facing?" If I have specific questions, then I look at that section in more detail.
[Debate] Myles says, "What if my OS has driver issues that don't allow me to use a microphone. I have to go buy a new laptop to get rewarded?"
[Debate] Wyldfire says, "I do not examine every single dice roll in detail. Some GMs do?"
[Debate] Vulcan says, "I skim a log. But if I need to read the whole thing, its there for me to do so. Offline, online, in a boat, with a goat, on the john, on my lawn."
[Debate] Blackout says, "You seriously can't get your mic working on Linux?"
[Debate] Numb says, "I look at the rolls, but I'm only looking for stuff that looks out of whack."
[Debate] Vulcan says, "This will not be the case with audio logs."
[Debate] Wyldfire says, "So in other words, Myles, the fact that some people are having fun bothers you… and it's important to you to shut it down?"
[Debate] Haley says, "No."
[Debate] Vulcan says, "Wyld, thats not constructive."
[Debate] Haley says, "Not that people are having fun."
[Debate] Haley says, "That people are getting kudos for doing things off MUSH."
[Debate] Vulcan says, "Thats not the case. It has nothing to do with their fun, but their desire to be rewarded in Denver for their OOC fun."
[Debate] Blackout says, "It's in-mush characters with in-mush consequences."
[Debate] Sickle says, "I know I hate fun. I seek to extinguish it at every opportunity. That is why I stay up until 2 in the morning running plots for new people."
[Debate] Myles says, "No it's the fact I don't have the option to, when others do and they get an advantage over me because of it"
[Debate] Haley says, "Stay up until 6 and run one for me ;)"

[Debate] Wyldfire says, "That's sort of what a lot of it sounds like. Person 'x' and person 'y' are having fun… playing Denver, just rather than typing on a keyboard, moving their lips. Still using Denver characters, Denver rules, Denver consequences… it seems a lot like, "I can't/don't want to do this, so I want to make sure you can't, either.""
[Debate] Blackout says, "It's not off-mush, Haley. You can keep saying that, but it doesn't make it true. It's just text vs speech. That's it. The _only_ difference is format. If somebody was going to accept you, they would accept you anyway, and vice versa. If it was in a bad timezone, that difference wouldn't disappear."
[Debate] Vulcan says, "Wyld."
[Debate] Vulcan says, "Let me be as clear as I may."
[Debate] Haley says, "Show me how to connect my voice program to the MUSH Blackout."
[Debate] Haley says, "Last time I checked MUSH doesn't support voice."
[Debate] Haley says, "Therefore it is off MUSH."
[Debate] Vulcan says, "We are a community. This program specifically excludes the community and is only tangentally connected. If you want to roleplay slinger in a tabletop, nothing stops you. If you want to use Vent to play on Denver, nothing stops you. But creating a program that rewards you for playign slinger in the tabletop and not on Denver, is not what I think is good for the community of Denver."
[Debate] Kalyani says, "I'm curious. Has anyone thought of using new characters for the SR Live stuff, while still playing their regular ones on here?"
[Debate] Vulcan says, "I cannot join your group, even via Vent."
[Debate] Wyldfire says, "That's a potential option, Kalyani, but it would mean forking Denver and creating, in essence, two MUSHes."
[Debate] Blackout says, "The said runs are done with in-mush characters and in-mush consequences. They can't exist without the mush. If something would not happen without something else, that usually means they're connected in some way."
[Debate] Craig says, "I actually don't know what this 'Vent' program you guys are talking about is. I use Teamspeak."
[Debate] Wyldfire says, "Which I don't know if a good idea."
[Debate] Vulcan says, "Ventrillo"
[Debate] Kalyani says, "Okay. I understand that mindset. Thanks for the reply, Wyld!"
[Debate] Sickle says, "People keep bringing it up, too, and people keep ignoring it but: If you support a new way to play the game, that way will /by virtue of existing/ compete with the old way. You will have people who want to exclusively play in the new way, and people who exclusively want to play in the old way. This splits the community. This very discussion should have proven THAT much beyond reasonable doubt."
[Debate] Craig says, "Ah… I don't like Ventrillo. So am I excluded because I won't run the program? :)"
[Debate] -> Kassandra says, "I think it is an interesting experiment, but one that doesn't seem to have a lot of support. There are going to be those who are going to play with it, and those that do not. the hope is to balance the rewards and whatnot."
[Debate] Vulcan says, "Sucks to be you."
[Debate] Gryphon says, "Side-note, Myles: Team Speak, Ventrillo via WINE, a SIP conference-call over an Asterisk server, a Google Voice conference-bridge (hey, automatic transcription of the entire voice recording, hrm… bonus!) all work under Linux. And a $20 USB webcam+mic clips onto a laptop, he does that on his T61p."
[Debate] -
> Kassandra says, "All the catty comments are not helping. Stop fighting and talk."
[Debate] Wyldfire says, "Not necessarily, Sickle. Because the two are part of the same game world (rather than being a different MUSH with different characters), there is a connection, and many people will do both."
[Debate] Gryphon says, "Don't try to play the "Linux can't do that," card here. It can."
[Debate] Vulcan nods.
[Debate] Vulcan says, "Heres the thing."
[Debate] Craig is running Teamspeak under Linux right now, actually.
[Debate] Vulcan says, "All the tech workarounds, all the toys, don't address the core thing."
[Debate] Craig says, "Natively!"
[Debate] Blackout says, "The core seems to be that Vulcan believes you are excluding others."
[Debate] Haley says, "If voting mattered it'd be made illegal."
[Debate] Wyldfire says, "Which is, Vulcan, that you and some others don't like it."
[Debate] Haley has left this channel.
[Debate] Vulcan says, "All I need is a 300baud modem and an AOL account to get in to Denver."
[Debate] Vulcan says, "I don't even need a modem anymore."
[Debate] Craig says, "You don'"
[Debate] Vulcan says, "Some peopel can do it on their phones."
[Debate] Craig says, "You don't need either of those to meet people in real life."
[Debate] Vulcan says, "And real life, is real life."
To (Simone, Sickle, Vulcan), Haley pages: I'm done.
[Debate] Vulcan says, "Leave it there."
[Debate] Sickle says, "I'm afraid I'm with Haley."
To (Simone, Sickle, Vulcan), Haley pages: More ways for the cliques to increase their power :P
[Debate] Sickle says, "If you cared about the opinion of the pbase and opened it up to voting, it would be voted down."
[Debate] Blackout says, "Any person who is invited can just long into their teamspeak server and play, right?"

[Debate] Wyldfire says, "I dunno — from what I've seen, people are about evenly split."
[Debate] Sickle says, "Then do it!"
[Debate] Vulcan says, "SO toss up a vote."
[Debate] Rielle says, "Hey, why don't we just have a vote or something on the topic? Because as it stands, it feels like it's evenly split."
[Debate] Craig says, "I actually have no control over whether or not this is approved. Or put up to a vote. As I understand it, that'll be left up to Piuth."
[Debate] Myles says, "So you want me to video tape my playing SR Denver with other people. What's your mailing address so I can send you the VHS so I can get my karma"
[Debate] -> Kassandra says, "This is getting too hostile."
[Debate] Rielle says, "It is. :|"
[Debate] Craig says, "Myles: 5110 NE 47th Terrace, Kansas City, MO, 64117"
[Debate] Kalyani says, "I agree D:"
[Debate] Vulcan says, "Lets end this debate, and put it to a vote. I don't want to see this get any more hostile."
[Debate] Craig says, "Why not drop by and play a game or two? :)"
[Debate] -
> Kassandra says, "And all the cute comments are just dragging this down to the point where I dont care what you do anymore. Just stop fighting and play the game"
[Debate] Kalyani says, "I understood it when everyone was just discussing it, but there doesn't seem like a purpose to this at all if people are only gonna get angry."
[Debate] Wyldfire says, "Just make sure the way the vote is phrased has input from both sides. Craig, Vulcan, can you two work on finding wording that both of you can agree to being neutral?"
[Debate] Vulcan will see what we can hash out.
[Debate] Myles says, "I'm barely making enough money to pay the bills as it is, I can't afford to ship a VHS tape, will you pay the shipping?"
[Debate] Craig says, "You can email it to me."
Haley pages: How much would Pentabucks cost? ;)
[Debate] Myles says, "A VHS?"
[Debate] Craig says, "And yeah, I'll hash something out with Vulcan."
[Debate] Vulcan says, "THIS DEBATE HAS ENDED - LOG STOPPED"

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